Monday, 5 April 2010

Debbie Does B12 Pt 2 (Dilemmas)

Whether to be vegetarian, or vegan... I've always been a vacillator, on the fence....Just prior to going raw I was vegan - indeed, I came across a raw food site for the first time 'by accident' when looking for vegan recipes. Then when I went raw I decided to be raw vegetarian, that is, include a little unpasteurised milk/cheese every few weeks or so. Then I had a period in which I just couldn't decide (although ate very little dairy), which culminated in my going for raw vegan, which is the diet I had followed 100% for fifteen months prior to these articles. I'd intended to continue being vegan as long as all seemed well. I hadn't taken any supplements, as, being Natural Hygiene-oriented, my policy had always been broadly anti-supplementation (see Aug 08 article for why), although, where B12 was concerned, I'd always admitted I wasn't sure, and that that could be the one exception.

In Pt 1 here I described how I'd had a couple of 'symptoms' that might have been nothing to do with B12, but, as they had occurred in a week when it was a hot topic (again!) on the 30Bananas forum, I had decided it was time I had my B12 tested.

The test included iron, calcium and folate/B9, and, to my relief (since I have written about the first two!) I was fine on these. But I wasn't fine on B12. It was lower than the lowest end of the normal range. A further test indicated that I was OK for 'intrinsic factor'. My B12 result was a great motivation to spend a little time going through the considerable amount of information I'd collected about B12 over the years, but had always baulked at the time needed to do so!

In Part 1 I discussed B12 in general - what it is, how much we need, where it can be found on various sorts of diet, 'absorption issues', and what can happen if we are deficient. And I decided I was not sufficiently brave (or foolhardy - depending on who you listen to) to write off all the potential perils of B12 deficiency as scaremongering and that I would be taking steps to raise my B12 level.

So what were my options?

1. Stay raw vegan, unsupplemented, and try to raise my B12 level within those parameters.

2. Stay raw vegan, but supplement for B12.

3. Switch to raw vegetarian.

The first part of the article was 'informational'. This part is more personal; it's mostly describing my dilemma between options 2 and 3, what I did, and what I then did.


1. Stay raw vegan, unsupplemented

One way I could raise my B12 level without supplementation is to eat more of my food a) organic and b) unwashed. Here in the UK I grow quite a lot of food in the summer and we have a good fruit harvest in the early Autumn. So for a few months of the year I eat lots of food straight from the garden, mostly unwashed, with bacteria and no doubt minute insect matter clinging to it. But we're talking 50% of the year at most. For the rest of the year I have to rely on shop-bought food. I probably eat 60-70% of my food organic - the snag with loving tropical fruit like papayas and pineapples is that it is difficult to obtain organic locally - certainly in the winter. Also, the organic food I do buy is often washed. Even a water wash would destroy much of the matter on the plant foods that could manufacture B12 for me. (I did read that when fruit bats are brought into captivity and fed store-bought fruit they develop B12 deficiency. No source - can someone supply it?). But, nevertheless, I will be making an effort to increase my organic percentage and eat my food as far as possible in its natural state. (This is helped by the fact that a local organic retailer has just opened shop five minutes down the road from me!). I'll also be thinking about eating more fruit that can be eaten peel-intact, as I can't quite see how fruit such as bananas, melons etc could contribute to our B12, even if organic, as, because they are eaten without peel, they are effectively sterile.

Another possible way of righting my B12 level without supplementation would be to undertake a long-term fast, as Natural Hygiene literature includes case studies of B12 levels righting themselves through fasting, when the body, freed from the onslaught of food, can devote its energies to healing. The problem here is that, although I've undertaken several 24-hour fasts and two 3-day fasts, a longer fast would need supervision, and, right now, I'm not able to justify the time or expense to do that. (Some reading will say that if we really want to do something, we can always find the ways and means. What would I say to that? I would say that you are right.)

Fasting aside, I think it unlikely that I could raise my B12 level significantly just by eating a little more organic food while living in suburban Reading, UK. If I lived in a part of the world where I could live off the land all year round (with a source of drinking water not chemically treated - see Pt 1) I might feel more confident.

Option 2 - Stay raw vegan, but supplement for B12

B12 supplementation is most commonly found in tablet form. There are two types of supplemental B12: methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin. The 'methyl' type is best, as the 'cyan' type has to be converted by the body into the active form, which is...methylcobalamin!

B12 tablets are best dissolved or at least chewed rather than crunched/swallowed, to increase the percentage absorbed. Some manufacturers call their tablets 'sublingual lozenges'. Having bought some of these on line, I can tell you that this is just a fancy name for....tablets Put them under your tongue and they do eventually dissolve, but it takes a while.

Dosage - I've found it very unsettling that different authorities - mainstream medical and alternative, and different manufacturers, recommend such radically different doses. I've seen 500 mcg a week recommended. I've seen 2000 mcg daily recommended! The tablets/lozenges are generally 1000-5000 mcg a go when the daily RNI is 1.5 mcg - the rationale for such huge doses as compared with the RNI is that only a fraction of what we ingest in supplemental form is absorbed and/or people who are low/deficient need a 'bump start', etc.

The tablets always contain a few things additional to the B12. That's necessary for it to be ingestible in tablet form. For example, they almost all (possibly all) contain magnesium stearate, which is used in the processing to prevent particles from sticking to machinery. Magnesium stearate has been shown in large doses to be toxic to the liver and cause skin damage. We have to ask ourselves if we want that in our body in 'small' doses.

If there are 'absorption issues' (explained in Pt 1), then B12 taken orally won't do much good, if any, as the B12 ingested won't be absorbed from the digestive system into the blood. In these cases, B12 injections could be the answer, as the B12 would then bypass the mechanism of absorption.

However, although these may be the only option for those with B12 deficiency and absorption issues, I'm a little concerned at the current fashion for having B12 shots, especially by those who have not had a low B12 reading, but are taking them simply for the 'rush of energy', the 'high' reported by athletes, opera singers about to go on stage, etc! Now to me this says 'stimulant', and stimulants work because the body is on 'red alert', 'all systems go', marshalling its energies to try to eliminate substances it doesn't want! This could be something in the shots apart from the B12, or it could be the size of the dose. In true cases of deficiency, where every effort has been made by other means to tackle the cause of the absorption problems, it could be that any negatives may be cancelled out, but surely those with a 'normal' B12 count, or even a low B12 count but with no evidence of absorption problems, shouldn't be taking shots?

Option 3 - Switch to raw vegetarian

Many of my arguments here are subjective, and I expect them not to have validity for some readers. For some (whether raw vegetarian or raw vegan), there is no dilemma. For me, there always has been, as, although I am convinced that we should not be murdering animals and feasting on their corpses, I have never been convinced that 'dairy' is always, in every circumstance, wrong.

I expect a few 'unsubscribes' after publication of this article, but hope that the majority of those who disagree with me here will not feel that from this point on nothing else I write can ever be of interest to them again.

Whilst on a vegan diet, I have always said that, if I moved to a Greek island, and lived next to someone who kept goats for milk, and was offered some feta cheese, made from the fresh unpasteurised milk of a happy goat milked by human hands (after she had met her kids' demands), I would switch to raw vegetarian at the drop of a hat. Re full breasts, the discomfort that can result, and 'relief', I have tried twice to write here about my own experiences when breastfeeding, but have deleted as...perhaps too much information!). Goats are not known for doing things they don't want to do, and, provided a goat is hand-milked, it can obviously easily signal its willingness or not to give its milk. The awkward bit came for me when I had to admit that, in Reading, UK, this scenario did not exist, and the raw goats' milk I was buying would be coming from goats attached to milking machines. Such a contraption would not only surely be uncomfortable for the goat, but would make it much less likely that a goat could signal its aquiescence, or otherwise!

One major motivation for my going raw was the Essene diet. This was raw vegetarian rather than vegan. However, in those days, the milk the Teacher referred to as being a good food for us would almost certainly have been collected via hand-milking. As it was described as food for man for just one month of the year, although it wasn't prohibited at other times, this would suggest that we should not be consuming anything like the amount of dairy the average person in the UK consumes. Also, in Essene times it would not have been consumed at the expense of the kids - it would have been surplus only (which perhaps explains the seasonal reference).

Some sources say that the Essenes had fermented dairy, eg yogurt, kefir; in fermented dairy the lactose that gives some digestive problems is pre-digested by the fermentation process (although, unfortunately, according to the Vegetarian Society B12 can be destroyed in fermentation!). Other sources conflict with this by stating that the Essenes never drank 'fermented liquids' (although this could be referring to alcohol). Incidentally, the Essene Gospel of Peace makes it clear that any milk drunk should be fresh, ie unpasteurised/raw - it describes an incident in which a serpent (the devil) was attracted by the smell of heated milk. I've always found this interesting as, when a child, I would not drink pasteurised cows' milk, detested the smell of heated milk (my Dad used to have it 'for his ulcer') and, weirdly, had nightmares about my parents dying in which I could smell heated milk.

Many of the raw fooders/Natural Hygienists that I admire, and that have influenced my thinking, were raw vegetarian rather than raw vegan. One of the most famous Natural Hygienists of last century - Herbert Shelton, and Doctors Norman W Walker ('Becoming Younger') and Ann Wigmore (founder of Hippocrates Institute), all included raw dairy of some sort in their diets, although never advocated the consumption of high amounts of pasteurised cows' milk. Of course that's not to say they couldn't have done better without dairy. That's something we can never know.

No other animal drinks milk after it's been weaned, and no other animal drinks the milk of another species. This is quite true, and an excellent argument for veganism that surely can't be disputed. Or can it? When the human being is described as simply one more species of animal, albeit a more 'developed' one, to justify anything, eg aggression, sexual behaviour, diet, it is just possible that we are falling into a trap, as the human being is unlike 'all other animals' in many respects. To list all of them would require a separate article, but here are a few: we laugh, we cry, we create (not just for reproduction or shelter), we wander all over the globe (we don't stay in one habitat or migrate along pre-determined lines), we symbolise...Whether by evolution, accident or design, the human being is different from 'all other animals' and I won't discount the possibility (and the irony) that big-headed, 'clever', 'powerful' man may actually be reliant, that is, dependent on animals! The 'Anastasia' books (Ringing Cedars Press), although fictional, suggest gently that animals may even want to serve man, and here 'serve' is used in the most positive and beautiful sense, in the way that we might serve our fellow-men. Could it be possible that when we then abuse their trust, their natural love for us, by eg killing them, factory-farming them, (or damaging their milk via pasteurisation) we pay a price, via their aggression, and via disease? (Edit - on a forum recently when I said that human beings are different from 'other animals' I was misunderstood - I am not saying we are 'superior'!! Animals live perfectly in accordance with nature. We often choose not to, and have to bear the responsibility for that.)

Although high consumption of pasteurised dairy is linked with illnesses such as asthma and breast cancer, these diseases are almost unknown in relatively healthy, long-lived communities such as the Abkhasians, Vilcabambans (John Robbins' 'Healthy at 100'), who consume a little, raw, dairy. The dairy consumed by such communities is often goats' which is closer in composition to human milk than cows'; it's more alkaline and, according to Dr Norman W Walker, less acid-forming.

One practical problem with raw milk is that it is quite difficult to obtain. It's sometimes available covertly at farmers' markets, or direct from farms, and a couple of suppliers sell it online. However, some (most?) farms are also sending the animals off to slaughter for meat. So it may be difficult to obtain raw milk without supporting those who are killing animals.

Raw cheese is more widely available. Two problems here (apart from links to the meat industry as above). Firstly, the cheese may not be so raw...I think regulations in the US still require the milk to be heated to 60C - unsure about the situation in UK. Whilst this is not as hot as pasteurisation (almost boiling point), it's way past the 'raw' cut-off point. Also, I believe that unpasteurised cheese has to be 'aged' for two months, which is why raw cheese is so often the stinky kind, making it a (particularly?) unnatural product for us, and of course is usually quite high in sodium chloride used in processing. This sort of cheese, whilst it may be labelled 'raw' or 'unpasteurised', is likely a long way from the fresh cheese consumed by the cultures previously mentioned.

I should at this point briefly mention eggs as a source of B12, as some raw food vegetarians do eat these and some (eg Frederic Patenaude) consume these whilst not consuming dairy. One ethical argument in favour is that hens will lay lots of unfertilised eggs (they do - we used to keep them) and that other creatures will surely eat them if we don't, but...I tend to go by the Natural Hygiene principle that something is food for us if we find it atractive, and raw eggs...just don't do it for me. Also, when hens are bred for egg-laying, what happens to the unwanted male chicks? So, for me, eggs aren't an option.


After a few days of 'crisis', taking everything into account, I decided that, at least in 2010, morally, the raw vegan diet trumped the raw vegetarian, and that I would stay raw vegan, but take a B12 supplement. I 'announced' this to 30Bananas, the raw food forum I frequented most. However, I do think that my decision might have been influenced by the fact that my ego rather enjoyed the 'public approval' I received. And it felt good that I could remain a member of 'the vegan club'. When I felt shaky, and felt conflict between principles of Natural Hygiene, my allegiance to Essene principles, and my supplement-taking, I buoyed myself up by reminding myself that there were other raw vegans who-did-not-generally-believe-in-supplements-with-the-exception-of-B12 - it always feels good to have a little 'support' from others for our decisions.

So, I took the supplement, twice a week, for several weeks.

And I....

hated it.

The 'Xylitol', the 'lemon flavor', the magnesium stearate and the rest of them...immaterial of whether the label proclaimed them to be 'of vegetable origin', I just don't want these isolated, unnatural substances in my body (which would also be likely to be the case for powders, potions, 'drops' etc).

Also, I bought the lowest-dosage 'lozenges' I could find - 1000 mcg. The label proudly proclaims I'm taking nearly seventeen thousand times my B12 RNI in one go. Doesn't quite match with my maths on a 1.5 mcg RNI, but seventeen thousand times, seven hundred times,whatever...I'm not reassured that, to date, 'no scientific evidence' has been found to show such doses are harmless. With increasing regularity nowadays we find scientific studies to show that various vitamin tablets people have been encouraged to take in high quantities ('mega' doses) in the past have not been improving their health, but the very opposite.


So I tried. I wrestled with the issues, I had plumped for vegan, but after a month, I knew there's no way I'm going to be swallowing these things for ever more. Every fibre of my being militates against it.

I'm neither happy with consuming the milk of goats attached to milking machines that may come from a farm rearing animals for meat. But neither am I happy with taking supplementation. But...neither am I happy with (very) 'low' B12. And, of the two options described above, although they're certainly 'a rock and a hard place', I'm 'less unhappy' with dairy than I am with supplementation.


The next step? In two months' time I will retest for B12, to see whether a month of supplementation followed by two months of dairy, has made a difference to the level. If not, I'll investigate factors that might be affecting absorption (although my 'intrinsic factor' test result was OK).

Did I feel any 'better' after a month of B12 supplementation? No, I felt fine before, and still felt fine after. Did I feel any better after having some raw cheese? As with the supplementation, not a jot of difference. And have the 'symptoms' that I described at the beginning of Pt 1 abated? Well, I haven't had any more strange mental turns! But that was just one occurrence, so only the daft would say 'ah, B12 deficiency!' Waking with pins and needles? It's still happening. Perhaps I'd better ease off on the knitting.


After finding one place in the whole of the UK that produced mild raw goats' cheese, and after enjoying it for a few weeks, I decided to stop sticking my neck in the sand and enquire as to what happened to the male kids. I was assured that all their goats led happy lives (of course...) and that the male kids were...killed. One method apparently was to hit them hard against a rock. I am ashamed of myself for not having enquired earlier, and will stop buying the cheese. I'm very, very sorry, and it looks as if my foray (again) into dairy will now be ending. Which means unless I can find some source that doesn't involve killing (highly unlikely) I will be reverting to vegan again! And taking the b_____ supplement! It's the lesser of two evils.

Regular readers, who generally find me confident and resolute (well, most of the time?), will note that I have, to date, been unable to resolve the B12 situation satisfactorily.

And there we will have to leave it!

PPS 24.5.10 (Well, not quite leaving it there...)

As I've mentioned in the articles, I'd had a test for 'intrinsic factor' which indicated to me that I didn't have an absorption problem in that regard. However, I did still worry a little that, being an old hag who had followed a standard digestive-system-abusing diet for many years prior to raw, I might still have 'compromised' my digestion in some way, that is some other 'absorption issue'. HOWEVER...I've now had a follow-up blood test, three months after the reading of 159 that was below the lowest end of the 'acceptable' range. Having ingested B12 via dairy and supplementation, my B12 level has now risen to 220. This supports there not being any absorption issues with me - looks as if the low figure was simply due to not ingesting enough B12, and previous supplies from a diet several years previously had run down - simple as that.

I'll continue to have my blood tested annually. Like many other raw vegans who have been through similar (Dr Doug Graham, Tonya Zavasta etc) I'm hoping that supplementation is something I will only have to do occasionally, when the level dips below that at which I feel comfortable and/or I experience symptoms that could be, might be.... to do with B12...


Unknown said...

Hi Debbie,

I wonder if you have considered the B12 patch!

Seems like the benefits of the shot but without the discomfort and as it is gradually absorbed, probably without the "high" you mention.

Remember that no matter how happy the animal you source your milk from appears, she still has her free will taken away. In most cases, she will have its babies taken away before they even ween. Dairy is inherently cruel and I do not think animals should suffer due to our society's errors. B12 would not be a problem for you if you lived in a pristine environment with clean water and soil!

~ Sherry

Unknown said...

This patch is cheaper at only $10 a month!

Debbie Took said...

Thanks, Sheryl.

Lots of good B12 info on the site as well.

Gretchen said...

Hi Debbie,

Thanks so much for writing both these articles on B12. I didn't worry about it at first, but it's been over two years of lfrv now, and I'm thinking I should probably get tested. If low, I will definitely be in your same position, and I so appreciate you being honest and thorough. The patch that Sheryl mentioned is definitely something I'll look into if I find that I'm low. Also, I do know one person (Don Weaver) who has been raw vegan for 32 years now. He recently got tested and found that he was a little low, and now supplements.

Like you, I do love dairy and I know I have raw options. I live in California and can get it at the farmers markets where the goat guy brings pictures of his goats and I feel good about that source. I wish I liked raw eggs - my neighbors keep chickens and I feed them my kitchen scraps every day and know they're happy and healthy. But ick! And I used to love raw oysters in years past, but that's definitely not a humane source.

However, I also love being vegan now. It's so pure and simple and I feel so good about not using animals for food. Plus I used to have scary-high cholesterol, and dairy was my big weakness and I'm just kind of afraid to open the floodgates. I'm not really known for moderation!

Okay, thanks again for all the awesome info, and for sharing yourself so openly. I love your blog :-)

Debbie Took said...

Hi Gretchen

Good to hear from you again. Another reason for wishing I lived in California - gnash! I do know what you mean about the simplicity of vegan...I may well change my mind back and forth many times over the years to come! (Although may not write a few thousand words every time I do - may just do it quietly :-))

Unknown said...

Based on your views I would strongly encourage you to take supplements, perhaps the shots, and NOT to drink goat's milk. I am a flesh eater and will not consume goat products because of my experience with working at a goat dairy. I can assure you the production is not consistent with your ethics. The farmer I worked with loved her goats and when the babies were born and she had to send the males away to be raised for meat, she would cry. I understood. Goats are among the most empathetic and human-like of all farm animals. They are almost like dogs in their craving for human attention and ability to mirror and react to our emotions. There is a reason we call them kids...

Why do I regularly consume flesh of fish if I feel this way? In so many ways our feelings about animals are arbitrary. Fish might have feelings, but it's quite difficult to discern them if they do. The bleating sadness of the mothers goats after their male kids are taken away is unmistakable heart wrenching, it's the same pitch used by wailing babies.

Mussels and other bivalves have high levels of b-12, as well as other nutrients hard to get in a vegan diet like taurine and DHA. They also can be eaten raw safely, do not have emotions because they do not have brains.

If you have your own goat you could potentially have more ethical goat milk, especially since there is the possibility to buy sexed semen and to only impregnate your goat with female babies. You could also try perennial dairy methods, which, if they work, mean you can milk without the birth of a kid each year.

Debbie Took said...

Hi Melissa

Thank you for your post - particularly the information on goats. My husband has always wanted to keep one...

Karmyn said...

Hi Debbie,

I'm sure this was a tough decision to make and I'm glad you made the decision that works best for you! :)

Love, Karmyn

Anonymous said...

This was such a good post and have enjoyed reading it and learning. I also as you know from my last post have struggled with this. While I have only been raw a year the last couple months I have felt tired, a little depressed too for no reason. I decided to add a little fish, and a couple eggs this week. I could not believe how much better I felt. I also noticed my hair was thining the last few months. While I have not had my blood tested, I have relied on how I feel. I will give it another couple weeks in this trial and see if this is what I needed. I had to give myself permission to try this and not allow guilt to follow. I know it is easy to put a label on ourselves and say "I am raw vegan" I am this or that but everyone's body is different and we all obsorb and react differently to foods. I am turning 50 this month and may need something that I am lacking. One thing that amazed me by eating fish twice this week, I did not crave fat or sweets that had been coming lately. I don't understand that part. So for now I am eating fruits, raw veggies, fish a couple days per week and range free eggs a couple times per week. I know this makes me not a total raw vegan but I am feeling better. Maybe I will do it for awhile. I dont know if my B12 was low but something was lacking. The fog lifted and I do feel more like myself.

Debbie Took said...

Hi Kim

I think the problem with eating x or y and 'feeling better' that very week is that it could well be coincidental (or even psychological?)...he proof of the pudding will be the long-term.

As I said in the article, after I'd taken the supplement (v large doses of B12) I felt no different, and after I'd had dairy I felt no different. I'm not pouring cold water here, as it may well have been that you were B12-deficient, but I think it could be worth having a blood test to check, as you could have been feeling tired/depressed for one of a hundred reasons unconnected with food. Or, it *could* have been connected with food in that when we go raw our eyes are opened to all sorts of things, and we can see so clearly (and it's often very painful) the things that are wrong with our lives/world in general!

Anonymous said...

Hi Debbie,
Very true in what you have said. It is easy to say that this or that made me feel the way I was feeling and did the adding of fish and eggs make me feel better? Was it in my head? I think the bottom line for me is for now I feel better. Wether it lasts or not is the test of time. I still believe with my whole heart that a raw foods lifestyle is best. It has changed my life. I am open though that there may be incidences where change is needed. Maybe temporaily or long term. I never want to say never if that makes sense? Thanks for your honesty.

Debbie Took said...

'Never say never' is good - we can't be certain what's right.

(Although, like you, I'm 99.99% certain that raw food is better than damaged food!)

Happy Vegan said...

Your b-12 journey is fascinating to me! I have 3 kids, vegan from birth (oldest is 9), and my husband and I have been vegan for almost 10 years, so the b-12 issue is something that I think a lot about. Like, you, I've tried to collect all info I can find, for when I decide I really truly "need" it.

I'm incredibly lucky to have two different families within 10 miles of me who raise goats for milk only, hand-milk only a gallon a day TOTAL from all of their goats (i.e. a very small amount from each one) and don't milk year round. The goats live the good life on MANY acres (one acreage adjoins our land) and act more like pets than "livestock". The babies are also left with their mamas and the mama goats aren't milked until the baby goat stops being so dependent of it's mama's milk.

It's really incredible to watch the goats come up to willingly be milked for a few minutes each. I know that if I ever felt the need to introduce raw goat milk into our diets, I have it available to me, and I wouldn't have to feel like it conflicts with my ethics.

I didn't realize that not everyone has those options available and I feel very grateful that I do.

I look forward to reading more of your blog, as I love your honesty on this "controversial" subject! :)

Debbie Took said...


You are indeed very fortunate :-)
(If you ever choose to exercise that option).

And, as you are a long-term vegan, I greatly appreciate your posting.

Couple of years ago I found a stall at a farmers' market that supplied raw goats milk and they too would also only supply in certain months, when the kids' needs weren't as high. I've found one source in the UK that supplies mild raw goats cheese online. I've asked them if their supplier also keeps the goat for meat, but...I've had no answer.
So next week I'm ringing the farm direct! Fingers crossed.

Debbie Took said...

And, folks, you can read what I found out when I phoned the farm in my postscript to the article...

Debbie Took said...

Posted on behalf of Patrick:


Excellent articles - wouldn\'t it be wonderful if the answer was crystal clear.

If anyone reading this chooses to supplement, then I suggest looking at the Solgar product \'Methylcobalamin 1000mcg Nuggets\'. There are 30 in a bottle for just under £10. They are sublingual, that is you just pop one of the tiny pills under your tongue and it dissolves easily within a minute, so no concerns as it absorbs through your mouth lining not your stomach. It does have the added ingredients you mentioned, but I\'d prefer that to all the stuff that must accompany an injection.

I looked at B12 patches, but for some reason that I can\'t recall now (sorry) I decided against them, I felt that they were more of a marketing product, than an effective solution, although I started off eager to try them.

Thanks for taking the time to write up your research/conclusions, without even having a product or affiliate link at the end to make it financially worthwhile :-)


Debbie Took said...

Many thanks for that information, Patrick - one I may try when I've finished the Jarrows.

Anonymous said...

Dear Debbie,
I have been so inconsistant in this B12 thing. I wanted to share with you about Beeturia. I ate some boiled red beets which came from a friends garden and unriated red. No big deal i thought but then red it could be a sign of anemia. You can read about Beeturia From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Odd since I have been feeling bad for about a month. I incresed my greens this did not help.I did add some eggs and a little fish and I did feel better. I go to the Dr. for labs today and see where I stand. i really hate the thought of supplements as I worry as to how much will really be obsorbed. Anyway i am so on the fence right now. Never thought I would be one to have to worry about this so soon. Only a year into this raw food lifestyle. Thank you for your honesty. You are so right about pride and I have the fear of being boo'd off for opening up and being honest. I think we should all learn from one another without judgement as each of us take our own health journey.
Thanks for all the info.

selina.aliens said...

I also sometimes supplement with pills, not sure how effective they are. But I have started to drink green powder a few times a week, and it has a whole day of supplementation of B12 in one dose.
What I mean is that there are many different B12 supplements out there, and some are more natural than others.

Debbie Took said...

Hi Kim

I wouldn't worry about your wee being red after eating beetroot. In straw polls of raw fooders on forum, this seems to happen to most of us - far more than the 10-15% in the article (or perhaps it's just raw fooders!). My wee's pink after beetroot and I'm not iron deficient.

I seem to remember well-known raw fooder and teacher Tonya Zavasta actually recommending we use the 'pink/red wee' test to determine how long our bowel transit time is, ie how long it takes us to digest food, so presumably her wee also turns red and she doesn't see it as a problem. Also, I assume her B12 level is fine as B12 is the one supplement she takes on her 100% raw vegan diet.

Others such as Victoria Boutenko do think it symptomatic of low HCL in the stomach and recommend green smoothies to increase the low HCL. As with so many things in the raw food world, who really knows? :-)

Debbie Took said...

Selina, agree that B12 supplementation varies and of course all the online 'raw' suppliers make claims as to how 'natural' they are. Up to us to try to determine the facts from the marketing puffery...

Unknown said...

Selina- what is the green powder and where do you get it from?